Badwater Forum

Now that the dates for the "official" Badwater are out, any idea as to when the "unofficial" crossing will take place? Just in case I don't get in.

Who organizes the unoffical crossing? I thought it was called the Ben Jones Classic. Or something along those lines.

Endurancedegenerate(E.D.) and running buddy will be embarking at 0600
July 1st. We hope/intend to go all the way up.
Who'd like to join us??

E.D[/b]

Excellent Marcia, thanks.

Thanks for your answers.

Here's another question" Does anyone plan on summiting? Is it necessary to get a summit pass from the park service?

Hi ya' Liam!

A buddy and I are planning to head up Whitney. We'll be taking off on July 1st. I've researched and the requests for permits will be accepted on and after February 1st.
Care to join us??!!

E.D.

Thanks Endurance! I'll probably be joining you if I don't get into the July 24 event.

...that'd be great. Do you have a crew yet?

E.D.

Thanks Endurance. So far 5 friends have volunteered to crew and pace. Who knows if all will actually be able to make it.

I would prefer at least 3 crew and 2 vehicles. That's what we had when I paced and crewed this year and it worked out quite well.

Good evening/morning Liam,

Please tell me more about your 2 to 3 person crew. This'll be my first B.W. and I don't want to run short, nor have a bunch of potential ex-friends cookin' in the desert!

Were are you from, by the way? I live in Central California, just outside the south gate of Yosemite. Very cool place to be a swim/bike/run guy!

Cheers

E.D.

Endurance,

Swim/bike/run guy eh? Me too. I just finished Ironman Florida.

I crewed and paced for Mark Cockbain of the UK this year. We had 2 minivans and 3 crewmembers.

Per the rules, at least one vehicle and crewmember needs to be with the runner at all times. The way we did it is to have 2 crewmembers in a van with the runner always. One of these 2 would usually run with him as well. The other van was used by a crewmember to make those long runs for ice. Ice is at a very high premium and can be as far as 50 miles or so away. We would also use the second van for the crewmembers to trade out and go to the motel in either Stove Pipe or Lone Pine to get some rest, food and more ice.

Oh, I'm from Montana but currently live just outside of Austin, Texas.

Ironman Florida...outstanding!

I'm at the olympic distance, progressing to "half" this summer. Why did those Navy Seals have to add water to the mix??!!

Thanks for the crewing pearls. I did think about the ice issue/availability but didn't realize that it'd be such a challenge. Is gas readily available on the course? I plan on taking my wifes mini-van, enough room? More stuff for me to think about over the next 7 months!

Lot's of great bike riding in and around Austin, so says Lance. I hear Austin's a nice city with not only sports but culture and history as well. The state capital too, right?

Later...

E.D.

...logistically that'll do. Do the stations stock up on ice?

E.D.

Our biggest problem with ice wasn't avalibilty (though that can be tight) but the timing of ice runs. It melts so darn fast. And the nearest ice may be 50 miles or more round trip.

Say your in the middle of the Owens valley at 2 am. You either drive back to Panamint or forward to Lone Pine and back. Your crew really needs to anticipate your ice runs so your runner is never in danger of going without.

A minivan is large enough. But 2 is peferable. The probelm with just one vehicle is the fact that you need one with the runner at all times. You can't take of on an ice run and leave him/her without a vehicle to climb into in order to cool down, transport for an emergency, or whatever.

Runners do manage it with jsut one vehicle. But I wouldn't recommend it.

And yes, Austin is a terrific town for cycling and culture. Running too for that matter. Great running communty here. The weather is good for year round running and races. Great trail/ultra running club as well. hillcountrytrailrunners.com

Much appreciated, thanks guys!

E.D.

Marcia/Liam,

Other than the gas stations along the route, are there ice machines at the motels?

Regarding dry ice...aren't there dangers using it on individuals for cooling and anti-inflammatory purposes?

I always thought it was alot colder than frozen H2O and could cause burns?

I've heard it needs ventilation so how can it safely be kept in a car that needs to have the A/C going?

Anyone here who has used it safely at Badwater or somewhere else?

The Tramp

The dry ice is used to keep the regular ice frozen. Not to be used on the runner.

I don't know about venting. We didn't use dry ice on our crew.

Liam,

Yeah, I didn't think the dry ice would be good a good idea to use in lieu of H2O ice - but I was thinking more along the lines of even if it was in the same cooler maybe the CO2 would still have a harmful effect on the skin. More so, I read it can displace O2 and I can only imagine in such extreme conditions the effect would be magnified as opposed to being in a less challenging climate.

Marcia has informed me that Dr. Lisa Bliss has used dry ice successfully during crewing, so there must be a safe way to use it. I'll ask her and see what kind of response I get and let everyone know for those with no experience with it also.

Thanks,

Trail Tramp

When I ran BW in 2003 we picked up the largest cooler that we could find at Sam's club in Las Vegas. On our way out to DV the day before the race we filled the cooler with ice and put several pounds of Dry Ice on top to keep the ice frozen. This cooler was used strictly for ice, no food or drink. I also had two other coolers that we used. One was a Gatoraid drink cooler for water and ice and second cooler was a more conventional one for storage of food, drink and other supplies. The day of the race we filled these coolers with ice from local souces. During the race my crew periodially transfered ice from the big ice cooler to the smaller coolers. This worked out very well and we had plenty for the race with no need to replensih.

The key to ice preservation is to keep the coolers closed, only open them infrequently to secure needed supplies. Since we were using a drink cooler with a spigot this minimized opening the other coolers.

Bill,

Sounds like sitting in a vehicle to rest/cool down didn't pose a problem with the dry ice from what you wrote.

So then is it best to sit in the car with a closed cooler that doesn't allow ventilation and only open the cooler when not resting in the car? Or form your experience, does it not matter at all?

Would the CO2 gas released into the car from opening the cooler affect the oxygen available in the car?

I'm thinking along the lines of you're fatigued and if you're in a car with frozen CO2 sublimating the gas will displace O2 in the air you're breathing and further fatigue you. I'm no chemist here but maybe somebody with some knowledge in that area can fill me in here. I'll read up on it too.

Anybody care to add their .02?

Thanks so much,

The Trail Tramp

Would a load of frozen liter bottles keep the ice and drinks cold enough, then melt to provide icy water?

E.D.

PS I'm a nurse and get loads of disposable plastic bottles at work. I freeze 'em and rub down after tough events.

Marcia and Bill,

Thanks for your responses. I don't mean to sound so anal about all of this; I was a nuclear, biological and chemical warfare specialist in the Marine Corps and often transported biological agents packed in dry ice containers and had to follow stringent safety procedures during transportation and handling. It was hazardous at times.

Of course, cooling the ice water in this instance is different as the concentration of frozen CO2 is lower since from what Bill says dry ice is simply added to ice and we're not transporting a whole, large container of dry ice. I'm sure there is a safe ratio of dry ice to frozen water as I'm learning it's common practice out there - this is all so new to me.

Plus, as you said Marcia, the car doors are being opened often and as Bill said the container is not being opened often - which would defeat the purpose of keeping the ices cold in the first place.

Sounds like just common sense: While resting in the car, don't uncover the dry ice container, and as the atmospheric pressure decreases and elevation increases and the body inspires less O2 when O2 displacement will then be a concern - don't stick your head in the dry ice container!!! lol

Things that make you go "duh" (or as Homer Simpson would say, "Do")

The Tramp

As I mentioned the dry ice was used to keep the cooler with our ice supply cold. It was not used for the water cooler. The only time the cooler with dry ice was opened was when we were stopped and need to transfer a quantiy of ice to one of the active coolers. No dry ice was moved.

Our windows were open most of tme anyhow as the AC wasn't really too effective when sitting at idle.

Bill,

Well that eases my mind a bit since being the fatalist that I am I have visions of a very tired runner at mile 70 getting into a car with the windows up and CO2 gas - even a little bit - leaking into the car while he sleeps. Probably not a problem in a less severe climate.

You know, I was going to post a new topic about vehicles and what's the best way to operate them because when I was crewing through OH a couple of months ago in temps not nearly as hot as Death Valley (topped out at upper 90sF) even having my car in neutral with the A/C blowing was quite a stress on the engine and it died several times. It's a '95 which I'm sure was a factor but I can certainly understand how it's best to have two vehicles out there.

I've read the Joneses provide emergency assistance along the course in the event of a disabled vehicle and other emergencies...is that right?

Thanks,

The Trail Trampler

Just heard from Doc Lisa re: dry ice:

"You won't have a problem with the ice and ventilation. Just keep it in a cooler with a good lid that minimizes exposure to air. Use gloves, bring an ice pick."

Bill I read your 2003 "Badwater, A Good Comfortable Road" race report you posted at the Adventurecorps site and in it you said the first day of the race you filled a 135 quart cooler with 100 pounds of water ice and topped it with 35 pounds of dry ice and that worked rather well at preserving the ice the first day, so roughly a 3:1 water:CO2 ice ratio is effective?

Off to Trample...

Marcia,

I freeze the aforementioned bottles and they last for 2 to 3 days, sometimes longer. Gotta' be in a quality cooler and the soda bottles usually are too thin. Stop by your local hospital/Urgent Care and ask the ER, ICU or Surgery manager for sterile water of Normal Saline bottles. They use lot's of 'em and just throw them away!

E.D.

Bill I read your 2003 "Badwater, A Good Comfortable Road" race report you posted at the Adventurecorps site and in it you said the first day of the race you filled a 135 quart cooler with 100 pounds of water ice and topped it with 35 pounds of dry ice and that worked rather well at preserving the ice the first day, so roughly a 3:1 water:CO2 ice ratio is effective?

It worked very well. We had ice for the entire race. I think we may have even throw some out at the end. I have to ask my wife to verify this as I wasn't paying all that much attention to the ice inventory during the race. Lisa's advise with respect the gloves and ice pick is good.

...yup, that'd be an issue!

Any suggestions on where I can internet shop for long sleeve shirts and pants for the run? Conventional wisdom seems to be total body coverage during the day!

Appreciate your help!

E.D.

Hi Liam,

Just wanted to say that I also live in Austin,TX. I moved here seven months ago because it's a such a swim/bike/run friendly town. Ironman Arizona is coming up next for me.

Take care,
Dmitry.

I am still planning to start July 1; but I may elect to start at 8:00 AM rather than 6:00. I'd rather get a little more sleep before starting. No matter what time you start, you can't escape the heat.